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"pelagius pelagius" <pela_gius@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote

I have to question this assumption that keeps popping up all over the place
that somehow digital systems don't have a "sound" to them.


well i didn't exactly say that - but you need to be precise here... sometimes you can create music where it is difficult to tell if the process is analog or digital. you can make it sound as digital or as analog as you like if you push things in that direction, or you can choose to be much more ambiguous and obscure or veil the process. the fact that you can choose this, supports an argument that the artist is a major player in the equation.


Isn't a Max/msp
patch essentially built up of different parts like filters?


yes

but the parameter sets, their manipulation via controllers and the sound materials put through them will be vastly different, so this is as much a mediating factor as anything else. You can use these things with subtlety as opposed to having the processor as the main focus. This is a musical decision.


  I'm assuming
that even if you make your own patches you're building them up out of basic
building blocks that do indeed have a certain sound.

yes, but... if you take this argument to its logical conclusion , you would say that all electronic music sounds the same as there are a limited number of tools which are in circulation. Would you level this ciriticism at piano music, or orchestral music? The statement 'sounding the same' is fairly nebulous. A quartal chord on a piano imparts a different colour to a triad, or a tone cluster. the timbre is essentially the same in terms of its building blocks, but the musical colours are different as a result of the stacking. i think these beliefs about 'sounding the same' tend to come more from a tendency in recent music to froeground or abuse the processor/s - which is a musical decision, as opposed to an inherent sound quality which is necessarily iomparted to all music which is made with the tool in question. Max any processor out (pun intended) and it will often move toward the same or at least a similar sonic point (oscillation etc...). This strategy obviously needs to be carefully negotiated, lest it _does_ all end up sounding the same.



The line of thinking that says "max/msp does not sound like anything" reminds me of the late '80s early '90s belief that digital synths and sampling could recreate any sound and therefore lets dump all of the analog synths in the trash.


it may remind you of that argument, but it bears little relationship if you are getting the nuance of the point i am trying to make. i'm arguing against an oversimplification of the argument which reduces or diminishes the decisions made by the artist. Perhaps i should rephrase - 'max/msp does not need to sound like what you would expect it to sound like', in fact you could be using it and no one would be the wiser unless they looked at your screen. i'd be suprised if people were not occasionally surprised by the tools that some people were using.. surely you have had this experience.


 Now with a bit of distance and experience, I'd hope we
all agree that a sampled waveform does not equal the original sound source
and that different samplers have different "sounds" to them.


like all different A/D converters and all filters etc...

the irony is that, given you can run the whole gamut of vst stuff within Max/msp (including softsynths etc...) _and all the internal objects and processors, Max/msp should have less chance of sounding the same than just about any other commercially available piece of software around... you don't have one filter, you have scores of them...

i still reckon people are barking up the wrong tree with this...




"mark" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote

I suspect the reason that there is no identifiable sound
for something like max/msp is that components have
been written by a myriad of different people and of course
no two people use the same set of component in any patch.
There are a lot of different filters to choose from
for example.

right, and how they are routed and controlled is a very personal decision which has a profound sonic effect.



I suspect that saying Max/Msp doesn't sound like anything is a bit like saying my studio doesn't sound like anything - of course it does but there is enough complexity that if you came and used it say you would get very different results out of it whereas if you came and used my XTk then it would still sound like an XTk whether you or I where playing it.

unless it was generating sine tones.... ;)

Regards

Julian


-- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ j u l i a n k n o w l e s senior lecturer in music technology electronic arts co-ordinator school of contemporary arts (music), university of western sydney web: http://www.geocities.com/socialinterior --Boundary_(ID_/pMVlI9XveqSRsQtXFFQWw) Content-Type: message/rfc822; Name="re: [microsound] old thread" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit