[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: RE: [microsound] influence vs. replica



Partially yes. I do think that many of the decisions are arbitrary. In other words, I believe (or may hope) that they are the best decision/solution/form to fit my needs or wants musically, but this does not mean it is the only, or the best solution. Same with thumbs. Yes, they are there for a reason and our evolution history has guided or process, but evolution does not make 'decisions'. It does not care. So all the forms are arbitrary. John Cage's need to remove the composer from music was a decesion he found fit his needs, but it does nmot fit all of our needs. Not only that, but Cage's ellaborate 'systems' he devised to remove the composer from music really were sort of hypocritical. Enforcing a system of removal leaves the composer as much present as anything else. Only not composing at all would leave the composer out of music.
Evolutionary science used to teach us that the reason a giraffe had a long neck was because that long neck was benificial and necessary for its environment. Recent studies have proven this to be pretty much a false assumption. There is no clear reason why the giraffe has a long neck. Or, consequently, why we have opposable thumbs.
Nature is a very arbitrary system. It just goes. It is a complete possibility that it could have taken a course which did not leave the beings on it with the correct tools to survive adequately. In which case this would have remained a baren rock. Nature would not have cared one way or the other.
Please, though, don't take me wrong. I do very much appreciate the discussion.
 Elisha <guitarristo@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:This is how organic systems evolve. I still don't think it's 
arbitrary. Just like ouur thumbs are not arbitrary. though we 
can imagine ourselves with big claws or tentacles instead of 
hands with thumbs, there is no other way we could have 
developed because our form has been defined by our needs 
clashing with the rest of nature. Nature is not an arbitrary 
system. Every event has a specific reason. Things sometimes 
seem arbitrary because we are not simultaneously aware of 
everythinng that is occuring in the universe. Nature is a very 
complex system. Perhaps I'm getting too metaphysical for this 
board so I will relate this back to music with a question. Do 
you think that the music you make is arbitrary?



---- On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Lance Grabmiller 
(praemedia@xxxxxxxxx) wrote:

> 
> You are correct, but duality is arbitrary as well. When I say 
arbitrary, I mean that there are many
> diffrent possibilities for computing and we have strayed 
along certain specific paths. A good example
> of this is memory and speed being set in packets of 4 
(usually actually multiples of 16). This is
> based on early computing models and we just 'ran with it' for 
the sake of compatibility and function.
> There is nothing inhereht in the processes associated with 
computer memory that says it couldn't be
> divided into multiples of 3 or 7 or some other matter. There 
were other methods of computing which
> involved possibilities besides binary, but these sort of fell 
by the wayside as well.
> 
> Elisha wrote:
> I do not think there is anything arbitrary about current 
means 
> of computation. Binary is another example of duality showiing 
> up left and right. 
> 
> 
> ---- On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Lance Grabmiller 
> (praemedia@xxxxxxxxx) wrote:
> 
> > 
> > First of all, I think it would be helpful to say what you 
> mean by 'neanderthal human interface.'
> > Given that we're not much more than that, then 
> any 'neanderthal' interface would suit our need
> > perfectly. 
> > Additionally, you're right, humans don't think in bits and 
> bytes, but why would we? Is it better? You
> > have to keep in mind that the 'bits and bytes' way of 
> processing was pretty much made up of a whole
> > host of arbitrary decisions and happy accidents. The 
history 
> of computer processing is all about
> > human intention stumbling its way rather clumsily through 
and 
> idea which is still relatively clumsy. 
> > Had a few more of those loveable nuts been smoking a 
> different weed or worked on a different problem,
> > then we may not have had 'bits and bytes' to talk about. 
> Could have been some other way of processing
> > entirely. Have to say this binary system is rather a bit 
too 
> simple. It is every bit as neanderthal
> > as we are, and every bit as neanderthal as Bach's quill pin 
> scrathcing away on the paper.
> > 
> > Elisha wrote:
> > > J Larsen wrote:
> > > 
> > > the digital way of making music is more indirect than 
other 
> > forms. a
> > > computer with its neanderthal human interface will act as 
a 
> > filter of
> > > the composers intentions, in reality enforce a strict 
> > limitation on the
> > > composing process and detach the composer from the 
listener.
> > > 
> > > Dave Fodel wrote:
> > 
> > > this is a bunch of hooey.
> > > 
> > > as a composer, how do you even know what my intentions 
are? 
> > if my intentions
> > > are to look at a waveform and act on that waveform based 
on 
> > what i see, what
> > > more "direct" way to realize my intentions than with a 
> > computer, in spite of
> > > its "neanderthal human interface".
> > > 
> > > i have no musical background at all. requiring me to 
> compose 
> > with some
> > > traditional process imposes a much stricter "limitation 
on 
> > the composing
> > > process" than any computer ever did. with a computer in 
my 
> > hands i have
> > > become a composer and producer of music (perhaps to the 
> > dismay of some
> > > unsuspecting listeners out there).
> > > 
> > > and as far as being detached from said listeners, your 
> > statement confuses
> > > me. if i were forced to compose something by writing down 
> > notes on paper for
> > > a bunch of physical instruments, how does that better 
> connect 
> > me to a
> > > listener? as it is, i can compose something, produce it, 
> and 
> > distribute it,
> > > all within that same neanderthal interface, and have 
> > listeners from around
> > > the world send me feedback on my work that very evening. 
> how 
> > does that
> > > qualify as "detached"?
> > > 
> > > i am happy that you are now seeking your inspiration 
> > elsewhere. i hope they
> > > have better laptops there.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > I mostly agree with you Dave, however I do think computers 
> have 
> > neanderthal human interfaces. In fact, I once wrote a short 
> > story from the perspective of a computer. It was all about 
> > it's frustration at attempting to communicate with human 
> > beings. There is only so much data we can manipulate at a 
> time 
> > with fingers. But it is direct manipulation. When a person 
> > arranges something for a bunch of instruments to be played 
by 
> > humans they have control only insomuch as the musicians 
stick 
> > to the page. This is not very direct. Anyway, my point is 
> > that human interfaces suck because humans don't think in 
> terms 
> > of bytes but there is nothing to compare it to, yet.
> > 
> > ________________________________________________
> > Get your own "800" number
> > Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
> > http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: microsound-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: microsound-
help@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Lance Grabmiller 
> > www.praemedia.com
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> Get your own "800" number
> Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
> http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: microsound-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: microsound-help@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Lance Grabmiller 
> www.praemedia.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> 
> 


________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: microsound-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: microsound-help@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
website: http://www.microsound.org



------------------------------

Lance Grabmiller 
www.praemedia.com

------------------------------


 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now