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Re: [microsound] [lengthy] last.panopticon



the naivety of these marxist rants is killing me...

if we're not gonna talk about music can we at at least talk about the season premiere of 'lost.'
i mean as far as watching 'lost' goes, i have no free will.
there.
i said it.

g.

On 1-Feb-08, at 11:54 AM, aleks vasic wrote:

Im not saying its impossible to protect ones self. I am saying its almost impossible to pass your logic onto the masses and have them actually do something about it..

Its also hard for some people to live their life as you, if they have children. If you do i feel that you will be limiting their possibilities for the future, but thats a big point of reference / philosophical topic ready for debate/discussion as well.

TV. I have a TV. But no programming. Not even antennae. I like to watch video art, art documentaries, as well a indie films. I get a lot of culture from around the world that would be hard to be exposed to other wise. I cant live off the grid as my job is my passion and unfortunately is dependent on capitalism. ITs all about compromises in the end i suppose as we all need to find the level of compromise that we are comfortable with. You post on this forums is a compromise of sorts. The computer you are using to type your post with is running on electricity and that bill is getting payed by someone, you get my point. I admire your effort to make a difference and cut out as much consumerism as you can out of your life. I wish i was in the position to do so. I would not be able to have the career that i do presently though(wow, the word career never seemed so dirty before)

I am a first generation american, and have grandparents and relatives who live way up in the mountains of the balkans. They are almost utterly removed from any form of consumerism. Maybe petrol for a tractor to plow a field, but they grow their own food, harvest their own crops, and barter with the rest of their neighbors for goods and what not, mostly hand made. I must say that it is a attractive proposition to leave everything behind and live a life of total self sufficiency. They all live long and fairly stress free lives in comparison to what we deal with in "Civilization"

I just dont ever see man as a whole changing. It is like we have this inherent greed built into us and we will be destined to always handicap our selves with always wanting more. Balance? Whats that? We destroy and pollute everything around us. Its shameful The patterns in history are repetitive and offer a grim view of the future since we seem almost totally incapable of learning from our past mistake, or even recognizing dire situations at hand TODAY.

Can technology save us from all of this doom and gloom. Will technology get to the point where there will be no classes because being self sufficient and living in harmony with our environment will be a piece of cake. A future where there will be no work, but a quest for knowledge and self improvement? No struggle for self improvment at the cost of stepping on a fellow mans head? Or will we spread throughout the universe like a dark cloud repeating the same mistakes over and over. I, myself dont have the answers. I have opinions that i will keep to myself as i dont want to be labeled a crack pot.( too late!?)

Wish i had more time but ive got to get back to bending over for the man!

aLEKs



On Feb 1, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Noah Paessel wrote:


I hate to take this thread even further OT, but here we go (free will?!?)

I think its great that micro-sounders are so passionate about these complex and far reaching ideas. I respect everyones opinions about markets, politics, choice, and privacy. You are all eloquent, and thoughtful. I hope you can forgive yet another caffeine-crafted monolog on the topic. For the sake of balanced discussion I will be supporting Mr. Weisberg, and devil-advocates everywhere in the 'cup-is-half-full' corner of the room. [ I think we are all appropriately traumatized by the developments of the last 8 years]. Time for some blue pill action.

On Jan 31, 2008, at 10:46 PM, aleks vasic wrote:

With all due respect, what choice? What is your choice? What is it that you are doing about it or how is it that your getting around it?

Is this a metaphysical discussion about free will? Or are you saying that its impossible to resist the temptation to consume?

Excuse the following naive approach to an answer to the later question. If you are trying to avoid consuming, here are some things that my friends and I do:

	don't own a car.
	don't own a TV.
	buy local produce at a farmers market.
	live in a community that supports local artisans.
	make your own clothes.	
	cook your own meals.
	live off the grid.
	don't pay taxes.
	become a freegan.
	join a slow food group.
	live in a cooperative housing.
	spend time with other people.
	volunteer your services.
	participate in market research studies and lie (culture jamming 101)

These are just a few examples of the types of choices people make. Lots of people. In America. Today. There are barter clubs, food clubs, communes, and cooperatives just about everywhere in America.

More and more people are making more thoughtful choices these days. The phrase 'more thoughtful' is loaded on purpose, revealing my opinion about what constitutes a good decisions. Lots of people make choices which are more 'main stream' then the ones I listed above. But we still need to call them choices, or we dehumanize people, turning them into a heard – From which we conveniently set ourselves apart (based on all the 'good' choices we have made).

We discredit 'the masses' by underestimating their comprehension of the power structures of the world. Everyone talks about "big corporations" and the "government" with conspiratorial tones. They are not trusted entities. Street kids, retirees, stay-at-home- moms, &etc. – no one is lulled by propaganda and wasted advertising dollars. This is probably the number-one lament of industry today. Companies are growing concerned about efficacy of marketing spend.

We all struggle with our own internal power-hungry demons. We tell ourselves stories about what we NEED; what we DESERVE. We all define SUCCESS and FAILURE for ourselves. Many spiritual practitioners try to avoid these temptations, but its a life-long journey.

Until we can overcome our own sense of entitlement and superiority – which are not abstract constructs of a philosopher or a marketing company – we will always struggle with these issues. No political or economic system will be immune from corruption unless every personal relationship is somehow morally bound to some contract that enforces respect, and humility. Is it conceivable or desirable to legislate such a thing? I don't think so.

Here is a a more personal, and on-topic question: Does the production and consumption of your music require a petrochemical economy? Could you compose your tunes some other way? Why is the composition of music a responsible endeavor, or a 'good choice'. How is it a reasonable use of shared resources? What moral yardstick are you using in your justifications of such choices?

There is always a modicum of ego involved in any decision-making processes. To strengthen our own resolve, we often trivialize the reasoning of others, sometimes we resort to dehumanizing them. Underestimating their intelligence, their educational background, their strength of will.

Education, is not solely the responsibility of the government (thank GOD). Education happens whenever two people have a frank discussion. Education never happens by yourself.

Some of my friends don't drink my particular brand of cool-aid. They still decide to have children, drive SUV's, eat meat, and pirate music. I feel OK about that, because its their life, their choice, The system-of -the-world is much too complicated for me. Further more, because I am in the minority, I am completely open to the possibility, that it is my thinking which is pathological. That doesn't bother me either. Diversity is the spice of life. The spice must flow. Long live the spice. (Except sporty).


Cheers,

- Noah




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