Im not saying its impossible to protect ones self. I am saying its
almost impossible to pass your logic onto the masses and have them
actually do something about it..
Its also hard for some people to live their life as you, if they
have children. If you do i feel that you will be limiting their
possibilities for the future, but thats a big point of reference /
philosophical topic ready for debate/discussion as well.
TV. I have a TV. But no programming. Not even antennae. I like
to watch video art, art documentaries, as well a indie films. I
get a lot of culture from around the world that would be hard to be
exposed to other wise. I cant live off the grid as my job is my
passion and unfortunately is dependent on capitalism. ITs all
about compromises in the end i suppose as we all need to find the
level of compromise that we are comfortable with. You post on this
forums is a compromise of sorts. The computer you are using to
type your post with is running on electricity and that bill is
getting payed by someone, you get my point. I admire your effort
to make a difference and cut out as much consumerism as you can out
of your life. I wish i was in the position to do so. I would not
be able to have the career that i do presently though(wow, the word
career never seemed so dirty before)
I am a first generation american, and have grandparents and
relatives who live way up in the mountains of the balkans. They
are almost utterly removed from any form of consumerism. Maybe
petrol for a tractor to plow a field, but they grow their own food,
harvest their own crops, and barter with the rest of their
neighbors for goods and what not, mostly hand made. I must say
that it is a attractive proposition to leave everything behind and
live a life of total self sufficiency. They all live long and
fairly stress free lives in comparison to what we deal with in
"Civilization"
I just dont ever see man as a whole changing. It is like we have
this inherent greed built into us and we will be destined to always
handicap our selves with always wanting more. Balance? Whats
that? We destroy and pollute everything around us. Its shameful
The patterns in history are repetitive and offer a grim view of the
future since we seem almost totally incapable of learning from our
past mistake, or even recognizing dire situations at hand TODAY.
Can technology save us from all of this doom and gloom. Will
technology get to the point where there will be no classes because
being self sufficient and living in harmony with our environment
will be a piece of cake. A future where there will be no work, but
a quest for knowledge and self improvement? No struggle for self
improvment at the cost of stepping on a fellow mans head? Or will
we spread throughout the universe like a dark cloud repeating the
same mistakes over and over. I, myself dont have the answers. I
have opinions that i will keep to myself as i dont want to be
labeled a crack pot.( too late!?)
Wish i had more time but ive got to get back to bending over for
the man!
aLEKs
On Feb 1, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Noah Paessel wrote:
I hate to take this thread even further OT, but here we go (free
will?!?)
I think its great that micro-sounders are so passionate about
these complex and far reaching ideas. I respect everyones opinions
about markets, politics, choice, and privacy. You are all
eloquent, and thoughtful. I hope you can forgive yet another
caffeine-crafted monolog on the topic. For the sake of balanced
discussion I will be supporting Mr. Weisberg, and devil-advocates
everywhere in the 'cup-is-half-full' corner of the room. [ I
think we are all appropriately traumatized by the developments of
the last 8 years]. Time for some blue pill action.
On Jan 31, 2008, at 10:46 PM, aleks vasic wrote:
With all due respect, what choice? What is your choice? What is
it that you are doing about it or how is it that your getting
around it?
Is this a metaphysical discussion about free will? Or are you
saying that its impossible to resist the temptation to consume?
Excuse the following naive approach to an answer to the later
question. If you are trying to avoid consuming, here are some
things that my friends and I do:
don't own a car.
don't own a TV.
buy local produce at a farmers market.
live in a community that supports local artisans.
make your own clothes.
cook your own meals.
live off the grid.
don't pay taxes.
become a freegan.
join a slow food group.
live in a cooperative housing.
spend time with other people.
volunteer your services.
participate in market research studies and lie (culture jamming 101)
These are just a few examples of the types of choices people make.
Lots of people. In America. Today. There are barter clubs, food
clubs, communes, and cooperatives just about everywhere in America.
More and more people are making more thoughtful choices these
days. The phrase 'more thoughtful' is loaded on purpose, revealing
my opinion about what constitutes a good decisions. Lots of people
make choices which are more 'main stream' then the ones I listed
above. But we still need to call them choices, or we dehumanize
people, turning them into a heard – From which we conveniently
set ourselves apart (based on all the 'good' choices we have made).
We discredit 'the masses' by underestimating their comprehension
of the power structures of the world. Everyone talks about "big
corporations" and the "government" with conspiratorial tones. They
are not trusted entities. Street kids, retirees, stay-at-home-
moms, &etc. – no one is lulled by propaganda and wasted
advertising dollars. This is probably the number-one lament of
industry today. Companies are growing concerned about efficacy of
marketing spend.
We all struggle with our own internal power-hungry demons. We tell
ourselves stories about what we NEED; what we DESERVE. We all
define SUCCESS and FAILURE for ourselves. Many spiritual
practitioners try to avoid these temptations, but its a life-long
journey.
Until we can overcome our own sense of entitlement and superiority
– which are not abstract constructs of a philosopher or a
marketing company – we will always struggle with these issues. No
political or economic system will be immune from corruption unless
every personal relationship is somehow morally bound to some
contract that enforces respect, and humility. Is it conceivable or
desirable to legislate such a thing? I don't think so.
Here is a a more personal, and on-topic question: Does the
production and consumption of your music require a petrochemical
economy? Could you compose your tunes some other way? Why is the
composition of music a responsible endeavor, or a 'good choice'.
How is it a reasonable use of shared resources? What moral
yardstick are you using in your justifications of such choices?
There is always a modicum of ego involved in any decision-making
processes. To strengthen our own resolve, we often trivialize the
reasoning of others, sometimes we resort to dehumanizing them.
Underestimating their intelligence, their educational background,
their strength of will.
Education, is not solely the responsibility of the government
(thank GOD). Education happens whenever two people have a frank
discussion. Education never happens by yourself.
Some of my friends don't drink my particular brand of cool-aid.
They still decide to have children, drive SUV's, eat meat, and
pirate music. I feel OK about that, because its their life,
their choice, The system-of -the-world is much too complicated
for me. Further more, because I am in the minority, I am
completely open to the possibility, that it is my thinking which
is pathological. That doesn't bother me either. Diversity is the
spice of life. The spice must flow. Long live the spice. (Except
sporty).
Cheers,
- Noah
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