Re: [microsound] completely OT yet so on-topic

[frans@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

>>
>> I agree with Andrei: tell it to the people in those countries and see what
>> they have to say about this.
>>
>
>Why?  If Romania is chiefly populated with the same illiterate peasants that
>their puppet dictators are plucked from, are they going to have a broad
>perspective on economics?

if the usa is chiefly populated with 75% non-voters they get their illerate
W. Are they having a broad perspective on democracy?

>> if you say 'too bad you think those are the only options', then I think
>too
>> bad he doesn't mention some alternatives.
>
>If I mention alternatives, you tell me to go tell them to peasents in
>Romania so that I will get my teeth bashed in!

it's a pity you dont speak out more. we now know what you dislike -
capitalism - but we still stumble in the dark in what you have to offer. I
gave you an example of how it works in The Netherlands, yet you don't
invite me to run for president (luckily!). So, no I won't ask the Romanian
peasents to bash your teeth. I am just curious.


>> I very much agree with David, when he says that there are ideal systems
>> (communism might be ideal, I agree, if everybody submits to it), but that
>> they don't always match up with reality.
>>
>
>Most of the things you guys are focusing on are byproducts of communist
>economics.  Yeah, maybe things would be more equal, maybe they wouldn't.
>The point is the economics of capitalism is flawed and unless that gets
>fixed we're doomed.  Its possible that neo-Keynesian economists could fix
>the capitalist model so that it works, but in the 70 years since the
>depression predicated the need for a true understanding of capitalist
>economics, they have not managed to come up with a capitalist economic
>equations that work, even on paper.  When they're fighting inflation they're
>creating stagflation, and so on.  They just can't manage the balancing act.

neo-Keynesian economics work considerable well here in The Netherlands.

>
>Forgetting about democracy altogether here, I'd prefer to ask you to
>envision a world where capital cannot be leveraged.  When does capitalism
>become organized crime?  If Tony the loanshark charges 25% interest, in most
>capitalist jurisdictions thats illegal.  But the bank can charge 10 or 13%,
>whatever is allowable by law.  When you look at that way its quite obvious
>that capitalism is a government-sanctioned criminal activity.  What if there
>were a law against any interest on loans and savings?  Now thats something a
>true 'conservative' should be able to get behind!  Perhaps if people were
>not too afraid to even attempt to envision such a thing it might be possible
>to acheive it through democracy.

banks in The Netherlands charge a 6% interest if you buy a house.

>
>
>> I was responding to your enthusiasm of communism, and your disinterest in
>> democracy (because the US is just a bad example?).
>
>I expressed no enthusiasm for communism, I expressed a distaste for
>democracy only because so far in history it has only been used as a tool by
>the ruling class.  I express distain for the ruling class because so far in
>history the bad things they've done far outweigh the good.  And before you
>paint me as a moralist, by 'bad' i mean mis-managed.

still failing to mention by which kind of system it must replaced. a system
that everybody could feel good by, make enough money and not having the
idea to remain silent (with the possibility to replace the government every
once in a while in an open election)

>
>I could accurately be labelled an anti-capitalist, but I dont think I like
>the label of communist if it means that I have to tell Romania peasants that
>puppet-dictators are a national treasure.

your name, Tolsma, sound very Dutch. Maybe you have ancestors here? Maybe
move back and find a middle path between US criminal capitalism and your
Romanian peasants?

Frans