[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [microsound] completely OT yet so on-topic



Frans & Tolsma,

I just wanted to chime in and say that it's very positive to have such an open discourse. But, it does reveal how well the U.S. media outlets have censored and manipulated their audience (myself included) to project only an 'american-centric' viewpoint of the world as it functions.

It is naive to point to a country such as Romania as an example of an economic model as there are/were many factors that led to the present system. This kind of simplification is the same tactic used by governments to synthesize enemies from benign modes of thought.

Marc



At 10:49 PM 4/26/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Andrei: tell it to the people in those countries and see what
>> they have to say about this.
>>
>
>Why?  If Romania is chiefly populated with the same illiterate peasants that
>their puppet dictators are plucked from, are they going to have a broad
>perspective on economics?

if the usa is chiefly populated with 75% non-voters they get their illerate
W. Are they having a broad perspective on democracy?

>> if you say 'too bad you think those are the only options', then I think
>too
>> bad he doesn't mention some alternatives.
>
>If I mention alternatives, you tell me to go tell them to peasents in
>Romania so that I will get my teeth bashed in!

it's a pity you dont speak out more. we now know what you dislike -
capitalism - but we still stumble in the dark in what you have to offer. I
gave you an example of how it works in The Netherlands, yet you don't
invite me to run for president (luckily!). So, no I won't ask the Romanian
peasents to bash your teeth. I am just curious.


>> I very much agree with David, when he says that there are ideal systems >> (communism might be ideal, I agree, if everybody submits to it), but that >> they don't always match up with reality. >> > >Most of the things you guys are focusing on are byproducts of communist >economics. Yeah, maybe things would be more equal, maybe they wouldn't. >The point is the economics of capitalism is flawed and unless that gets >fixed we're doomed. Its possible that neo-Keynesian economists could fix >the capitalist model so that it works, but in the 70 years since the >depression predicated the need for a true understanding of capitalist >economics, they have not managed to come up with a capitalist economic >equations that work, even on paper. When they're fighting inflation they're >creating stagflation, and so on. They just can't manage the balancing act.

neo-Keynesian economics work considerable well here in The Netherlands.

>
>Forgetting about democracy altogether here, I'd prefer to ask you to
>envision a world where capital cannot be leveraged.  When does capitalism
>become organized crime?  If Tony the loanshark charges 25% interest, in most
>capitalist jurisdictions thats illegal.  But the bank can charge 10 or 13%,
>whatever is allowable by law.  When you look at that way its quite obvious
>that capitalism is a government-sanctioned criminal activity.  What if there
>were a law against any interest on loans and savings?  Now thats something a
>true 'conservative' should be able to get behind!  Perhaps if people were
>not too afraid to even attempt to envision such a thing it might be possible
>to acheive it through democracy.

banks in The Netherlands charge a 6% interest if you buy a house.

>
>
>> I was responding to your enthusiasm of communism, and your disinterest in
>> democracy (because the US is just a bad example?).
>
>I expressed no enthusiasm for communism, I expressed a distaste for
>democracy only because so far in history it has only been used as a tool by
>the ruling class.  I express distain for the ruling class because so far in
>history the bad things they've done far outweigh the good.  And before you
>paint me as a moralist, by 'bad' i mean mis-managed.

still failing to mention by which kind of system it must replaced. a system
that everybody could feel good by, make enough money and not having the
idea to remain silent (with the possibility to replace the government every
once in a while in an open election)

>
>I could accurately be labelled an anti-capitalist, but I dont think I like
>the label of communist if it means that I have to tell Romania peasants that
>puppet-dictators are a national treasure.

your name, Tolsma, sound very Dutch. Maybe you have ancestors here? Maybe
move back and find a middle path between US criminal capitalism and your
Romanian peasants?

Frans



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: microsound-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: microsound-help@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
website: http://www.microsound.org

_ digital sound diffusion --> http://www.tiln.net _ marc mcnulty --> http://www.marcmcnulty.org