Re: [microsound] nn spew

[Christopher Sorg <csorg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Michal Seta wrote:

> > the
> > posts are somewhat disturbing and many people are still using NATO as a
> > professional performance tool (for example, the Nobakuza Takemura/Tortoise
> > show).
> 
> propaganda's goal is to disturb.  NN obviously is doing a good job with you.
> ... sorry, couldn't resist ....

Unfortunately, I have seen more propaganda on this list coming from the
MAX/MSP followers and Cycling'74 themselves.  And I'm *not* taking
sides.  Merely pointing out that they both could actually have
something to say and telling people to stop asking questions and shut up
is what is truly disturbing.  Not that you have said that yourself, but
many on the list have suggested that we just not talk about it and ignore
it.  I understand that the (single) rant that was posted can be
inflammatory and disruptive, but I find the censorship on the topic more
disturbing than anything else.  Like I said before, if it's off-topic,
then I understand, but I wasn't sure if it was or not.  Perhaps belonging
better in the IDM tools list?

> >  Being an informed consumer is an okay thing, even for IDMers.  I am
> > *not* suggesting by any means, to engage in rumor-mongering.  Max/MSP, I am
> > now convinced, is a fine tool and deserving of it's reputation and the hard
> > work put into it, but I don't think it helps to just sweep the comments
> > under the bed, all hush-hush like.  Think of the newbies, at least...
> 
> well, many software companies have their problems.  People use the software
> anyways.  What's important is how the software suits your needs.  If you
> don't like the price/attitude/other issues related to the software, you can
> usually turn to a competitor/alternative.

Well, that is, as I said, an "informed" decision people need to
make.  Difficult to be informed when things are quickly swept under the
rug.  That's all.  And I don't just by products simply because they do the
job.  I think that being a good consumer not only means purchasing a good
product for a fair price (which I have already stated that Max/MSP is),
but it also means being a responsible person.  I mean, this isn't
Dolphin-laden tuna or child labor or anything, but is it poor business
practice?  
 
> For Max/MSP you get PD and jMax.
There are a whole slew of products out there that are similar, but I would
say that Max/MSP is easily the most robust and flexible of them.  I mean,
Reaktor *could* get the job done, PD *could* get the job done, but then
again, you could be working in Corel Wordperfect when everyone else is
using Microsoft Word, too.  Perhaps for this kind of work it doesn't
matter so much what everyone else is using, although I rather think that
the support community that Max/MSP users enjoy is quite an advantage over
everyone else's product.  Free patches and objects, users groups, that's
practically unheard for almost any other product out there.  And having a
community for this kind of stuff is almost a necessity for learning an
advancing skills.

> I've never seen NATO but from works I've seen that were done in NATO you
> could probably substitute it by GEM and there's this video addition to jMax

GEM cannot (yet) do what NATO does, from what I have seen.  The quicktime
manipulations seem much more varied and powerful.  Personally, the only
thing I've seen from either of these products (or from most video with
IDM, DJing, whatever) is either cheesy chroma-keyed stuff that looks like
public-access television or your basic screensaver.  Coldcut has been the
only person I have seen to do anything truly intriguing conceptually to play
between audio and visuals, taking it beyong the "party scene" and into the
realm of art.  Anyone else that has used visuals on this level?

> Or learn to use the tool (any tool) so it will help you convey the 
> message.

And why is on this list, that if you ask questions and ponder things,
people assume you need to "learn to use the tool" or that you're basically
uninformed.  Personally, I think if you learn one modular synth, or if you
understand DSPs, or if you've read Dodge's book, you'll have a basic
understanding of this stuff that pretty much translates across the
board.  It's not that difficult, really.  It's tweaking what
comes out into some sort of quality that is the hard part.

_________________________
Christopher Sorg Multimedia Artist/Teacher
http://csorg.cjb.net
csorg@xxxxxxxxxxxx