Re: [microsound] war

[komons@xxxxxx]

> on 3/21/03 3:42 PM, Tim Kugel at guitardo@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > steve
> > 
> > spw wrote:
> > 
> >> Iraq was in the process of developing nuclear weapons.
> > 
> > this is such an absolute statement, what do you mean? when? where is the
> > proof?
> > have you followed the debate between the various inspectors?
> 
> There was a great documentary on PBS yesterday linking Sadam H and Iraq
> with
> many of the 
> Islamic Fundamentalist organizations including the Osama BinLaden.
> On the subject of nuclear weapons former members of the regime testified
> of
> Sadam's plans to 
> develop such weapons of mass destruction.

How about the fact that os and Saddam had fights (with several deaths)
against each other.
I guess the documentary left out some of the important facts.
Did the us government STOP the destruction of the weapons. Why are some of
the weapons saddam uses now from the US??

> > Are you saying before Israel bombed? In 1983 or something? after that
> the
> > inspections of the 90s have long since cleaned that up. The forged docs
> of the
> > USA to the contrary,
> > http://www.counterpunch.org/close03102003.html
> 
> After the Gulf War UN inspectors were expelled from Iraq and were dictated
> where they could 
> and could not look when trying to conduct inspections.
Why shouldn't they, after years of inspections? I don't see any cruelty in
that.
Though I don't support it. But inspections are now unimportant to the US
anyways, so
why debate on inspections!

WHAT ABOUT THIS?? 
 
here is the problem: the huge nuclear facility in Iraq was built largely
by
Bechtel, a huge American company.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/12.21A.us.firms.iraq.htm
> 
> Solution:
> Invade Iraq and take the current regeme out of power.
and kill people.

 
> > so it is an even more nauseating thing that simply "money," and yes,
> European
> > companies also assisted Iraq, as did Indian and Chinese and no doubt
> more. But
> > you must not trust the USA so guilelessly!! Look at the lies told by its
> > leaders
> > in the past,  you will find quite a few.  Common sense - leaders lie.
> > Governments do not admit crimes.
> 
> > 
> > Israel has WMD and is not punished. With these weapons they protect
> > themselves.
> > The situation is totally one sided for the folks who just happen to have
> oil.
> > 
> > By the way, you can bet the US is not any different when it comes to
> > trustworthiness. Think of what they told Saddam when they were shaking
> his
> > hand
> > after he gassed the Kurds. That person shaking hands was Don Rumsfeld
> for
> > those
> > of you who didn't know. Talk about  trust!
> 
> You can open the history books and point out diplomatic blunders with
> every
> government and 
> if you really want to put things in perspective with out being some
> obnoxious peace protesting
> pollitaically correct fruit cake you would see that war is natural part of
> human nature and life
> isn't fair.
So you say war is good. War equals killing people. Just because some guy
said war solves problems. And just because war WAS justified in the
centuries
ago doesn't mean it IS.
 
> But lets take your mentality, who should we trust the American Government
> who are not 
> exactly saints by a long shot or Sadam Hussein?
> 
> Let's see, the US does not use chemical warfare on people during times of
> war and definitely 
> not on it's own people.
Age orange, A-bombs just to name 2.

> We do not torture people by cutting of their limbs and dropping them in
> barrels of acid, nor do
> we brutally rape women (one of S's sons favorite hobbies) and take babies
> of
> incubators when 
> invading another country.
neither did the saddam saddam regime cut off limbs or take babies out of
incubators
> 
> Here's another one:
> America = Natzi
> 
> Where are the concentration camps?
> Why isn't America brutally torturing and killing Iraqi soldier who lay
> down
> their arms?
> 
> Sadam Hussien kills 6000 people with nerve gas and you want diplomacy when
> there is a 
> chance to take him out of power?
> The US troops who volunteered for the armed forces don't seem to have a
> problem fighting in this war, it isn't like young men are being drafted
> against there will to fight
> in a war they don't believe in.

There is no proof for the 6000 people figure as well. Who on earth could
give proof?
it might as well have been  10000 or 600. How'd you count 6000, why not 
6120? How'd you cout that number in a country where you have little control.
Who are the people that count?

US troops have a problem:
when their own people die and when soldiers get nuts...
or when soldiers return home and get sick of gas attacks and are not treated
by the US governement. It is not an easy ride for the soldiers, there is a
lot of pressure on them
and all information they get is censured, as well as all information the US
people
get through TV is censured. (not so in Germany...)
They dont want to die, they want to return home and don't get their hands
dirty.

> 
> So yes I support American interest instead of being some hypocrite who
> finds
> it easier to 
> criticize the US and protest war, what have all these peace protester done
> to really help 
> people, I'm willing to bet not much.
They have helped to destroy bombs that would otherwise have killed people.
There was no reason to start this war now, because of them trying to find
the peacful way.

> It's fashion statement, a recreational activity, the same people ignore
> bums
> on the side of the 
> road.
It's not a fashion, I did civil work as I would never take part in a war
and would never in my life join the army.
But as a fact I do karate for more than 6 years- I don't want to tell you
what karate is, it's not about attacking people...

Fashion isn't something that lasts that many years and is a lifelong
attitude.
That's my individual point of view, and I think there are quite some other
people
that take it the same way. Shure there will be fashion driven people, but
on BOTH sides.
It's also fashion to call saddam an evil guy who must be stopped with war
for some people I might say.

- Hans

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