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Re: [microsound] Derivative Music
Thanks for your post mhwrpc, very appreciated.
Well, i think you touched one of the point that brought me to open
this thread: Tropicalia.
I think that between this movement from the 60s and the post-punk
scene of the 80s i talked in my first post there are some
differences. I try to describe it briefly:
The use that Veloso and other tropicalistas did of the anglo-
psychedelia was something very meditate, that could be also confirmed
intellectually from the 'anthropofagist' manifesto of Oswald de
Andrade. i mean, tropicalia is not derivated from anglo-psychedelia,
this was just one of the ingredient, 'cannibalized' with elements of
brazilian culture, MPB, samba etc…
Maybe this, is quite different from post-punk, for which there's a
more focused history. Reading from the linear notes on the
complilation "The Sexual Life of the Savages", published by Soul
Jazz, you can see that Julio Barroso was in New York during the last
years of the 70s, and there he got in touch with No Wave scene via
Arto Lindsay. After he returned to Brasil with loads of records from
NY at the beginning of the 80s, he started his band Gang 90 and open
a kind of parallel movement in Sao Paulo, that can be hear in the
tracks of the comp.
So, to conclude, i ask if this last example could fit with the
definition of "derivative".
Anyway, Brasil is very rich, culturally speaking, and very complex,
so maybe some brasilian could make more clearifications.
Thanks,
sim
Il giorno 23/feb/06, alle ore 18:51, mhwrpc@xxxxxxxxxxx ha scritto:
it is kind of funny, if not totally predictable, to me that most of
the posts in this thread read in to the term "derivative" all of
the negative connotations of the word rather than intuiting the
rather neutral use of the term in the original post. Derivative
has a negative connotation in our language/culture, it tends to
mean cheap imitation, degraded copy, etc. I think that the
original poster meant it very literally in the sense of music or
sounds "derived" from other musics, styles, sounds... There need
be no judgements attached to this concept, for most music and
almost all style is derived from something else preceding it in
time. Sometimes, methinks, derivatives are actually more
interesting than antecedents. In our present time/culture, there
are even less straightforward/more convoluted versions of this. I
know that Autechre is a slightly controversial group in that some
people think they are too far out, while others think they are not
far out or original enough. But, one of the things that I find
thoroughly fascinating about their output in the last few years is
that from what I can gather, these guys were not that familiar with
musique concrete until other people/critics started pointing out
similarities between their output and the whole ina-grm axis of
tape music,etc. Then Autechre started listening to that stuff and
being influenced by it in some way. This, to me, despite the fact
that I could be totally wrong in my assumptions, makes for music/
culture that is incredibly complex and serious and funny all at the
same time. Are you in favour of additive or subtractive
synthesis? Do you consider yourself primitive or sophisticated?
Todd Dockstader on Folkways? Semantics? What is your identity
comprised of/derived from? Tropicalia is much more interesting to
me than the Anglo-psychedelia it was derived from. There are
people who make atrocious clothes look great and vice versa, ideas
are only as good as their applications, see software, etc. All
apologies for my ramblings, hope I make you laugh as much as you
make me laugh. Love, mhwrpc
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "mat.the.w" <craque@xxxxxxxxxx>
Nice line of thinking Jeff.
Derivative style versus derivative content, or the appropriation of
technique as opposed to that which the technique produces.
One problem is that some music easily tagged as derivative
couldn't be
further from, but carries all the characteristics of, simply due to a
simultanaeity or coincidence. Scriabin and Schoenberg both worked
on their
own systems of serial composition, completely unaware of each others'
existence (either in life or in sound), much less work in that field.
But at the same time, derivative thought gives way to inspiration.
Would
Cage have ever thought to dig inside the piano if he had never
heard Cowell
do it first? DID he hear Cowell do it first? (I don't know the
answer)
So then, would you have to dichotomize derivative *sounds like* from
derivative *made like*?
There's an enormous amount of musical history, and for every
composer there
is a certain amount of derivation in his or her work simply by the
fact that
they choose to work in a style or medium.
In fact, it's more unique to find a NON-derivative artist, and
questionably
so. Even Derek Bailey derives his techniques because he holds the
guitar
traditionally or uses distortion when he plays electric or touches
the
strings with his fingers or a plectrum or both. As wonderfully non-
idiomatic
his music is, he's probably one good example of a musician where the
derivativeness exists, but is extremely worked and polished down
and bent to
his will.
I'm personally a lot more interested in the non-derivative lean of
things.
On 2/23/06 7:15 AM, "jeff gburek" <tsazmaniac@xxxxxxxxx> scribed:
at another pass, it occurs to me sampling and
turtablism make derivatives more traceable, conscious
and deliberate...wheras derivative style for an
instrumentalist comes from appropriation of techniques
into one's body (for the guitarist in the fingers
patterns or slide technique or putting the guitar on
the table, putting objects between the strings: these
are techniques at getting a sound and the sound may be
called derivative if you are enamoured of thinking
that way (derivative thought). but to say a piece
derives from previously realized musical work, say we
take a sample of strings from ligeti, that's a
different kind of deriving, like grafting skin,
eventually it becomes assimilated to the new tissue
and the old form which contains its own genetic
material, moves forward as part of a new opus...
--- jeff gburek <tsazmaniac@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
when?...it derives from mathematics no? derivative
functions...from thereon it functions in other
contexts just as a metaphor, in genetics etc...
culturally it is moot since sampling is
simulacral--another discourse-- and derivative style
means one imitated and or pastiched--to mold
something
from pre-stuff...when i was young you had to cut
your
own style...but when we said this it did not mean to
be popular...it meant to stand alone...very
ethical...these days most will think of something as
music only after it had been popularized
(classicalized) and this latter is a process of
insertion into a scale of hierarchies whereby its
individuality is perpetually deconstructed by a
process of comparisons and associations with
established norms. my answer then modified:
derivative
music occurs "naturally" with reprodcution and
disssemination of products and nothing prevents the
original from being cheapened to the point of
uselessness. that is the devastating anti- culture
of
capital. it is similar to a process of assimilation
of
language but different because style is a late
decision (it is: appropriation) in life and it shows
social forces and one's resistance to and bending
toward conformity
-jeff gbk
--- Risonanza Magnetica - S
<s@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm not talking about "influence", but
"derivative",
maybe it's easy
to confuse it
Anyway, i'll try to propose the question in a
different way: when
this idea of derivative is born?
best,
sim
Il giorno 21/feb/06, alle ore 18:29, mat.the.w ha
scritto:
The problem is that you can say this about
pretty
much any music.
There are
countless style progressions and a very rich
musicological heritage
shared
amongst musical 'genres', as far back as the
first
composers began
imitating
one another.
You've touched on more of a meta-description of
artistic
development, in my
eyes. Maybe something more descriptive of the
style itself would
make more
sense?
On 2/21/06 9:21 AM, "Risonanza Magnetica - S"
<s@risonanza-
magnetica.com>
scribed:
Hi everybody,
I'd like to suggest you what do you think about
the concept of
"derivative music".
I'm considering this in the field of post-punk,
specifically referred
to the the post-punk scene in Sao Paulo,
Brasil,
during the eighties,
as "derivative" of No Wave scene in New York.
This concept should be valid also for a bigger
part of electronic
music field, i'd like to know if someone knows
about a specific study
on this
Thanks,
Simone B
--
Risonanza Magnetica
http://www.risonanza-magnetica.com
info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Tel +39 0523 713363
Mob +39 328 8619930
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j.ff gbk
http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/
http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html
http://www.djalma.com
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