Re: [microsound] Derivative Music

[mhwrpc@xxxxxxxxxxx]

it is kind of funny, if not totally predictable, to me that most of the posts in this thread read in to the term "derivative" all of the negative connotations of the word rather than intuiting the rather neutral use of the term in the original post.  Derivative has a negative connotation in our language/culture, it tends to mean cheap imitation, degraded copy, etc.  I think that the original poster meant it very literally in the sense of music or sounds "derived" from other musics, styles, sounds...    There need be no judgements attached to this concept, for most music and almost all style is derived from something else preceding it in time.  Sometimes, methinks, derivatives are actually more interesting than antecedents.  In our present time/culture, there are even less straightforward/more convoluted versions of this.   I know that Autechre is a slightly controversial group in that some people think they are too far out, while others think they are not far out or original enough.
  But, one of the things that I find thoroughly fascinating about their output in the last few years is that from what I can gather, these guys were not that familiar with musique concrete until other people/critics started pointing out similarities between their output and the whole ina-grm axis of tape music,etc.  Then  Autechre started listening to that stuff and being influenced by it in some way.  This, to me, despite the fact that I could be totally wrong in my assumptions, makes for music/culture that is incredibly complex and serious and funny all at the same time.   Are you in favour of additive or subtractive synthesis?  Do you consider yourself primitive or sophisticated?  Todd Dockstader on Folkways?  Semantics?  What is your identity comprised of/derived from?  Tropicalia is much more interesting to me than the Anglo-psychedelia it was derived from.  There are people who make atrocious clothes look great and vice versa, ideas are only as good as their applications, see
 software, etc.  All apologies for my ramblings, hope I make you laugh as much as you make me laugh. Love, mhwrpc
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "mat.the.w" <craque@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Nice line of thinking Jeff.
> 
> Derivative style versus derivative content, or the appropriation of
> technique as opposed to that which the technique produces.
> 
> One problem is that some music easily tagged as derivative couldn't be
> further from, but carries all the characteristics of, simply due to a
> simultanaeity or coincidence. Scriabin and Schoenberg both worked on their
> own systems of serial composition, completely unaware of each others'
> existence (either in life or in sound), much less work in that field.
> 
> But at the same time, derivative thought gives way to inspiration. Would
> Cage have ever thought to dig inside the piano if he had never heard Cowell
> do it first? DID he hear Cowell do it first? (I don't know the answer)
> 
> So then, would you have to dichotomize derivative *sounds like* from
> derivative *made like*?
> 
> There's an enormous amount of musical history, and for every composer there
> is a certain amount of derivation in his or her work simply by the fact that
> they choose to work in a style or medium.
> 
> In fact, it's more unique to find a NON-derivative artist, and questionably
> so. Even Derek Bailey derives his techniques because he holds the guitar
> traditionally or uses distortion when he plays electric or touches the
> strings with his fingers or a plectrum or both. As wonderfully non-idiomatic
> his music is, he's probably one good example of a musician where the
> derivativeness exists, but is extremely worked and polished down and bent to
> his will.
> 
> I'm personally a lot more interested in the non-derivative lean of things.
> 
> On 2/23/06 7:15 AM, "jeff gburek" <tsazmaniac@xxxxxxxxx> scribed:
> 
> > at another pass, it occurs to me sampling and
> > turtablism make derivatives more traceable, conscious
> > and deliberate...wheras derivative style for an
> > instrumentalist comes from appropriation of techniques
> > into one's body (for the guitarist in the fingers
> > patterns or slide technique or putting the guitar on
> > the table, putting objects between the strings: these
> > are techniques at getting a sound and the sound may be
> > called derivative if you are enamoured of thinking
> > that way (derivative thought). but to say a piece
> > derives from previously realized musical work, say we
> > take a sample of strings from ligeti, that's a
> > different kind of deriving, like grafting skin,
> > eventually it becomes assimilated to the new tissue
> > and the old form which contains its own genetic
> > material, moves forward as part of a new opus...
> > 
> > --- jeff gburek <tsazmaniac@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > 
> >> when?...it derives from mathematics no? derivative
> >> functions...from thereon it functions in other
> >> contexts just as a metaphor, in genetics etc...
> >> culturally it is moot since sampling is
> >> simulacral--another discourse-- and derivative style
> >> means one imitated and or pastiched--to mold
> >> something
> >> from pre-stuff...when i was young you had to cut
> >> your
> >> own style...but when we said this it did not mean to
> >> be popular...it meant to stand alone...very
> >> ethical...these days most will think of something as
> >> music only after it had been popularized
> >> (classicalized) and this latter is a process of
> >> insertion into a scale of hierarchies whereby its
> >> individuality is perpetually deconstructed by a
> >> process of comparisons and associations with
> >> established norms. my answer then modified:
> >> derivative
> >> music occurs "naturally" with reprodcution and
> >> disssemination of products and nothing prevents the
> >> original from being cheapened to the point of
> >> uselessness. that is the devastating anti- culture
> >> of
> >> capital. it is similar to a process of assimilation
> >> of
> >> language but different because style is a late
> >> decision (it is: appropriation) in life and it shows
> >> 
> >> social forces and one's resistance to and bending
> >> toward conformity
> >> -jeff gbk
> >> 
> >> --- Risonanza Magnetica - S
> >> <s@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I'm not talking about "influence", but
> >> "derivative",
> >>> maybe it's easy
> >>> to confuse it?
> >>> Anyway, i'll try to propose the question in a
> >>> different way: when
> >>> this idea of derivative is born?
> >>> 
> >>> best,
> >>> sim
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Il giorno 21/feb/06, alle ore 18:29, mat.the.w ha
> >>> scritto:
> >>> 
> >>>> The problem is that you can say this about
> >> pretty
> >>> much any music.
> >>>> There are
> >>>> countless style progressions and a very rich
> >>> musicological heritage
> >>>> shared
> >>>> amongst musical 'genres', as far back as the
> >> first
> >>> composers began
> >>>> imitating
> >>>> one another.
> >>>> 
> >>>> You've touched on more of a meta-description of
> >>> artistic  
> >>>> development, in my
> >>>> eyes. Maybe something more descriptive of the
> >>> style itself would
> >>>> make more
> >>>> sense?
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 2/21/06 9:21 AM, "Risonanza Magnetica - S"
> >>> <s@risonanza- 
> >>>> magnetica.com>
> >>>> scribed:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Hi everybody,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I'd like to suggest you what do you think about
> >>> the concept of
> >>>>> "derivative music".
> >>>>> I'm considering this in the field of post-punk,
> >>> specifically referred
> >>>>> to the the post-punk scene in Sao Paulo,
> >> Brasil,
> >>> during the eighties,
> >>>>> as "derivative" of No Wave scene in New York.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> This concept should be valid also for a bigger
> >>> part of electronic
> >>>>> music field, i'd like to know if someone knows
> >>> about a specific study
> >>>>> on this?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Simone B
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Risonanza Magnetica
> >>>>> http://www.risonanza-magnetica.com
> >>>>> info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Tel +39 0523 713363
> >>>>> Mob +39 328 8619930
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
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> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> j.ff gbk
> >> 
> >> http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/
> >> 
> >> http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html
> >> 
> >> http://www.djalma.com
> >> 
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> > 
> > 
> > j.ff gbk
> > 
> > http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/
> > 
> > http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html
> > 
> > http://www.djalma.com
> > 
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