Re: [microsound] Re: the system that works for the great deal of people

[Jason Hollis <contact@xxxxxxxxx>]

Wow, where to begin? 

First off, I didn't say most of what you are claiming I did.  
At no point did I so much as imply anything of the sort. 
 
You took one word or a tiny sliver of semi-relevant concept, claim that's my whole point, build up a bunch of reference (true and otherwise) relevant to what my point ISNT, and then proceed to smack that around instead.   Weak. Try it out! You'll see how easy it works!  =/

Time and again I keep getting bushwhacked by the strawman attack.    
Maybe I should name him.. Fred.  Fred the strawman.  Hey Fred. Sup.

What I said was that anyone in power can abuse that power under any kind of social system yet devised, as demonstrated throughout history. 
Corruption and abuse of the masses by an elite can hit any social order, be it c@pitalist, communist, fascist, theocratic, tribal, high school clique. 

I further said that only when an informed and educated public can hold those leaders and elites accountable for their actions or inactions is there any hope at all for that real world social order to be sustainable, much less free of corruption, regardless of how it looks on paper. 

If you feel otherwise, do enlighten us as to why, and then be so kind as to point us at this perfect society so we can all go live there. 

Just dont trot ole Fred out again.  
He's had a rough week. 


~ !J!
http://www.endif.org
http://www.crunchpod.com 
http://www.thirdwavecollective.com
 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tasty radish" <tastyradish@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "microsound" <microsound@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: [microsound] Re: the system that works for the great deal of people


> 
> ok. one last response. 
> ****
> 
> no, imho, the crux of the matter has EVERYTHING to do with ACTUAL manifestations and mechanisms of power and privelege, that are historical and ongoing. These are mystified and obscured by a complex number of elements. But, through analysis, discussion, language, thought we can come to understand
> what is actually happening. 
> 
> And it has nothing to do with speculating about the potential of mankind (for good/evil/greatness/shortcoming, etc. etc..)
> 
> Speculating like this is engaging in a humanistic plane of thought. This means that your argument falls back/hinges on a discourse of Humanism. It is always bracketed by Humanism. Humanism (a very popular and widespread discourse in our 1st world culture -- taught in schools, relied on in advertising, etc. etc.) 
> is involved in notions of what man "is", and his potential.  It is primarily ahistorical. Most importantly, it heavily promotes the idea that everything comes back and originates to and from man's qualities of ____ (fill in the blank). Try it out! You'll see how easy it works, almost all the time (which should give pause for thought...) -- and also how quickly
> it steers the thought/conversation away from looking at the power-structure/history to a portrait of "Man" as kind of ahistorical being...   
> So, it essentializes "man" on one hand, and on the other is a convienent way of sliding out of actually dealing with power as it is happening, and as it is being struggled with, on the ground, historically and at present. (Humanism as a discourse does have a connection, as it has developed historically, with important ideas of "human rights". I am not 
> arguing that humanism should be abandoned, but rather that it has a limited role in understanding what is actually happening politically). 
> 
> A more historical sensibility argues things like we -- each and every human being -- are born *into* language/culture/history *already going on*. It did not originate from "man", but rather developed in all kinds of ways, not neccesarily "progressively" but thru a myriad of interactions. Ways which we can analyze and understand. Not neccesarily totally and forever, but with a certain degree of healthy, truthful understanding and awareness.
> This gives us actual insight and power (as knowledge, at least) into what is going on, and has occured, ASIDE from speculation (even theologies) about "man"! A very useful thing.   
> 
> A historical view of power doesn't put man's (possible) essences/potentials at the center and origin, but rather emphasizes how people are in the (present) history of regimes/power-structures/social orders, first and foremost.  Collectively.  
> 
> Then one can understand and analyze those regimes/interactions, etc. on their *own right*, with or without speculations about man's "essence". 
> 
> Lastly, Humanism is consistenly used to apologize for the Liberal state. Apologetics prevent understanding and the development of tactics/strategies/etc. Apologetics mystify. 
> 
>>That has little to do with capitalism as such, or communism as such, 
>>and 
>>everything to do with man's shortcomings as a being.
> 
>>Anyone can be greedy and defraud/enslave their fellow human.
>>Anyone can be cruel and powerhungry.
> 
>>Just ask the poor souls in the capitalist pig sweatshops.. or those 
>>that lived under a communist system.
>>Each are/were equally enslaved by an elite class that oppressed them 
>>and 
>>took the majority of the wealth generated for themselves.
> 
> **********
> 
> Here (below) is humanism combined with social darwinism. Also, a way of thinking/interperting which slides out of x issue at hand, relying on 
> essentialist ideas of the "human" collapsed into some kind of idea of the natural state of societies. 
> 
> Evolution occurs over long, long time periods. It also contains many radical shifts (accidents, etc.). 
> Darwin wrote of survival of the fit. 
> 
> "hierarchy" doesnt' occur in animals all the same way, at all, including the Human. 
> 
> it has many manifestations, to the point where it becomes plain sloppy to pre-suppose some kind of same old hierarchy all the time. 
> Sometimes 'hierarchy' is loose, sometimes it is a hard military line (speaking about Nature...). 
> 
> So, if your model is evolution, check out the many variations that exist. Nature is pretty wild.   
> 
> 
>>We are still on a biological level intelligent predators with a 
>>heirarchal 
>>social structure, and most people still behave that way to some degree.
> 
> 
>>More power to those that attempt to find better ways to be.
> 
> Everytime you attempt to go beyond the obscurations, you are on that road! 
> 
> I don't mean to give you a hard time, or anything like that. 
> 
> Rather I really think that humanism, social darwinism almost completely obscure what is happening. 
> 
> 
> Free Your Mind.. (you know the rest), 
> -Andrew
> 
> 
>  
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