Re: [microsound] war

[jan.larsson <jlarsson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Almost every country in the world has been working with some kind of=20
programme on nukes. If only to know how to deal with them when=20
attacked. No one beleives Iraq currently are even anywhere near such=20
weapons. And its cetrainly not a reason to start a war that threatens=20
world stability.

Regarding  chemical weapons it is pretty clear that Saddan Hussein used=20=

them for a very short period in the 80s. The iranian ayatollahs was=20
kicking saddams ass in the war and the kurdish separatists up in the=20
north saw their chance and started a violent armed revolt. Saddam with=20=

his back against the wall used chemical ewapons on both fronts at that=20=

point.

It is in this context you should put this. It does not excuse the use=20
of those weapons. But to use the above as an excuse 15 years later to=20
start a war that kills many more civilians than the chemical attacks=20
and threatens world stability is just crazytalk.

The reasons for the war against Iraq has nothing to do with Iraq.

s=F6ndagen den 23 mars 2003 kl 10.20 skrev komons@xxxxxx:

>> on 3/21/03 3:42 PM, Tim Kugel at guitardo@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>
>>> steve
>>>
>>> spw wrote:
>>>
>>>> Iraq was in the process of developing nuclear weapons.
>>>
>>> this is such an absolute statement, what do you mean? when? where is=20=

>>> the
>>> proof?
>>> have you followed the debate between the various inspectors?
>>
>> There was a great documentary on PBS yesterday linking Sadam H and=20
>> Iraq
>> with
>> many of the
>> Islamic Fundamentalist organizations including the Osama BinLaden.
>> On the subject of nuclear weapons former members of the regime=20
>> testified
>> of
>> Sadam's plans to
>> develop such weapons of mass destruction.
>
> How about the fact that os and Saddam had fights (with several deaths)
> against each other.
> I guess the documentary left out some of the important facts.
> Did the us government STOP the destruction of the weapons. Why are=20
> some of
> the weapons saddam uses now from the US??
>
>
>>> Are you saying before Israel bombed? In 1983 or something? after =
that
>> the
>>> inspections of the 90s have long since cleaned that up. The forged=20=

>>> docs
>> of the
>>> USA to the contrary,
>>> http://www.counterpunch.org/close03102003.html
>>
>> After the Gulf War UN inspectors were expelled from Iraq and were=20
>> dictated
>> where they could
>> and could not look when trying to conduct inspections.
> Why shouldn't they, after years of inspections? I don't see any=20
> cruelty in
> that.
> Though I don't support it. But inspections are now unimportant to the=20=

> US
> anyways, so
> why debate on inspections!
>
>
> WHAT ABOUT THIS??
>
> here is the problem: the huge nuclear facility in Iraq was built=20
> largely
> by
> Bechtel, a huge American company.
> http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/12.21A.us.firms.iraq.htm
>>
>> Solution:
>> Invade Iraq and take the current regeme out of power.
> and kill people.
>
>
>>> so it is an even more nauseating thing that simply "money," and yes,
>> European
>>> companies also assisted Iraq, as did Indian and Chinese and no doubt
>> more. But
>>> you must not trust the USA so guilelessly!! Look at the lies told by=20=

>>> its
>>> leaders
>>> in the past,  you will find quite a few.  Common sense - leaders =
lie.
>>> Governments do not admit crimes.
>>
>>>
>>> Israel has WMD and is not punished. With these weapons they protect
>>> themselves.
>>> The situation is totally one sided for the folks who just happen to=20=

>>> have
>> oil.
>>>
>>> By the way, you can bet the US is not any different when it comes to
>>> trustworthiness. Think of what they told Saddam when they were=20
>>> shaking
>> his
>>> hand
>>> after he gassed the Kurds. That person shaking hands was Don =
Rumsfeld
>> for
>>> those
>>> of you who didn't know. Talk about  trust!
>>
>> You can open the history books and point out diplomatic blunders with
>> every
>> government and
>> if you really want to put things in perspective with out being some
>> obnoxious peace protesting
>> pollitaically correct fruit cake you would see that war is natural=20
>> part of
>> human nature and life
>> isn't fair.
> So you say war is good. War equals killing people. Just because some=20=

> guy
> said war solves problems. And just because war WAS justified in the
> centuries
> ago doesn't mean it IS.
>
>> But lets take your mentality, who should we trust the American=20
>> Government
>> who are not
>> exactly saints by a long shot or Sadam Hussein?
>>
>> Let's see, the US does not use chemical warfare on people during=20
>> times of
>> war and definitely
>> not on it's own people.
> Age orange, A-bombs just to name 2.
>
>> We do not torture people by cutting of their limbs and dropping them=20=

>> in
>> barrels of acid, nor do
>> we brutally rape women (one of S's sons favorite hobbies) and take=20
>> babies
>> of
>> incubators when
>> invading another country.
> neither did the saddam saddam regime cut off limbs or take babies out=20=

> of
> incubators
>>
>> Here's another one:
>> America =3D Natzi
>>
>> Where are the concentration camps?
>> Why isn't America brutally torturing and killing Iraqi soldier who =
lay
>> down
>> their arms?
>>
>> Sadam Hussien kills 6000 people with nerve gas and you want diplomacy=20=

>> when
>> there is a
>> chance to take him out of power?
>> The US troops who volunteered for the armed forces don't seem to have=20=

>> a
>> problem fighting in this war, it isn't like young men are being=20
>> drafted
>> against there will to fight
>> in a war they don't believe in.
>
> There is no proof for the 6000 people figure as well. Who on earth=20
> could
> give proof?
> it might as well have been  10000 or 600. How'd you count 6000, why =
not
> 6120? How'd you cout that number in a country where you have little=20
> control.
> Who are the people that count?
>
> US troops have a problem:
> when their own people die and when soldiers get nuts...
> or when soldiers return home and get sick of gas attacks and are not=20=

> treated
> by the US governement. It is not an easy ride for the soldiers, there=20=

> is a
> lot of pressure on them
> and all information they get is censured, as well as all information=20=

> the US
> people
> get through TV is censured. (not so in Germany...)
> They dont want to die, they want to return home and don't get their=20
> hands
> dirty.
>
>>
>> So yes I support American interest instead of being some hypocrite =
who
>> finds
>> it easier to
>> criticize the US and protest war, what have all these peace protester=20=

>> done
>> to really help
>> people, I'm willing to bet not much.
> They have helped to destroy bombs that would otherwise have killed=20
> people.
> There was no reason to start this war now, because of them trying to=20=

> find
> the peacful way.
>
>> It's fashion statement, a recreational activity, the same people=20
>> ignore
>> bums
>> on the side of the
>> road.
> It's not a fashion, I did civil work as I would never take part in a=20=

> war
> and would never in my life join the army.
> But as a fact I do karate for more than 6 years- I don't want to tell=20=

> you
> what karate is, it's not about attacking people...
>
> Fashion isn't something that lasts that many years and is a lifelong
> attitude.
> That's my individual point of view, and I think there are quite some=20=

> other
> people
> that take it the same way. Shure there will be fashion driven people,=20=

> but
> on BOTH sides.
> It's also fashion to call saddam an evil guy who must be stopped with=20=

> war
> for some people I might say.
>
> - Hans
>
> --=20
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