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Re: [microsound] Mac vs PC (linux information)



> > Too bad there is no professional audio tool for linux yet, afaik.
> What is a professional audio tool?  Are you talking about sound
> quality?  Or eye candy?  Or the aboundance of ready made solutions?
what I meant was that basic functions are well supported, but many
advanced functions are absent in programs. e.g. I don't know any
linux-tool with which you can morph spectra. This of course could also
very well mean that I'm not that good in browsing the internet.
 
> > Rezound looks
> > pretty neat, just like Audacity, but it just doesn't provide the needs
> > of pro's.
> 
> About 10 years ago I started using Sound Designer.  It was caonsidered
> a professional level sample editor.  I think the 2 above mentioned
> apps provide more functionnality.  I don't think, however, that the
> notion of professionalism changed radically in the past 10 years.
Within a year or so I'll step into thesame profession as you do.
Naturally the basic principles of our profession don't change, bus as
technology evolves it gets extended all the time.

> > E.g. you don't want to use it in a studio. 
> I have been in studios running Windoes.  You don't want to you use it
> in the studio.  I could never understand how people were able to keep
> PCs with windoes in the studio for other purposes than running
> WordPerfect.  I know only one Windows user who claims to have a stable
> system and is able to manage an audio latency at around 10ms.
> However, he lives much to far for me to actually go and check it out
> because I find it hard to believe.  My own experience with windows (I
> tried the free version of ProTools and cakewalk 9.1, I believe) was
> very disappointing.
You're right when you say that win98 with crappy protools free doens't
work well in a studio. Perhaps that's why digidesign quit with it.
Today, Windows 2000 is stable enough for studio-use. Combined with an
RME Hammerfall audio system I achieved a latency of 2x 1.5 ms (hardware)
+ 2ms latency (PureData) = 5 msec. latency from microphone to speaker.
I've used this settings several times live. And in such a case it surely
helps that you do not use your configuration for any other purpose than
audio.

> > Just like lovable PD it can
> > do a lot
> > but it isn't ready yet, PD's documentation is incomplete just like it's
> > functio-
> > nality. Developers spend most of the time getting it just to work. 
> Please, get in touch with reality.  The developers are constantly
> working on improving it.  Yes, pd has flaws.  So does commercial
> software.  The only difference is that if you find a bug or a flaw in
> an open source software there is a very strong chance that there will
> be a fix within days.  In case of commercial sofwtare you usually have
> to wait to the next update or upgrade and sometimes you have to pay
> extra just to have a vital bug squished (or a few plus a new feature
> thrown in to soap your eyes).  But there are herds of musicians/artists
> using pd in
> production.
Oops.. with developers I meant people developing patches with PureData.
PureData itself is already in beta stage, if not a finished product.
It's the 'recommended' Windows installer that installs all those
sometimes pre-alpha libraries that can make your system instable.
Compared to Max/MSP you do spend more time patching your patches,
because Max/MSP contains many prefabricated objects.

> BTW, what do you mean by incomplete functionnality in PD?
Lack of prefabricated objects that allow faster development. Naturally
you can make them yourself with PureData and/or C++, but that'll take
longer.

> 
> > In
> > contrast
> > to commercial applications like Max/MSP. 
> 
> I started usig Max/MSP in the MacOS8.x days.  But the time of MacOS9
> but well before MacOSX I found MaxMSP rather unstable for live
> performance.  Everyone at my school was using it and everyone was
> struggling to make the thing survive a performance.  Everyone had the
> unpleasant experience of MaxMSP hanging the whole system during a
> performance.  Perhaps that is what you think is related to
> professionalism but I quickly found that I could run an audio patch on
> my linux box with pd for _days_ without shutting off the audio and I'd
> have no crash, no glitch.  For me, the choice was obvious.
You're right of course, stability is _the_ #1 requirement for live
performance. In this case PureData is a winner. Today even under
Windows.
I'm not very familiar with the overall stability of Max/MSP these days,
I hear it crashes a bit too often under Windows.. I assume it runs
stable under MacOSX.

> I am not saying that pd is perfect.  It in fact needs a major overhaul
> of some code but none of the developers claims it to be a professional
> grade sofwtare, either.  It's still in alpha, experimental release.
> But it costs you nothing.
Costs are irrelevant. I like the b/w interface though, and prefer
PureData instead of Max/MSP. Also Max/MSP doesn't run on Linux *yet* :)

> > This is why serious musicians
> > and audio-
> > philes still use Windows and/or MacOS.
> Because those have been around for a long time and spend a lot of
> money for marketing campaigns.  And one of those comes pre-installed
> when you buy a computer at your favorite store.  And you are not given
> a choice!  If you want linux, you have to install it yourself or ask
> specifically for linux at the retail store (and not all of them
> provide linux systems).
True. When you buy a laptop like I did.. well.. I still had to pay for
Windows, couldn't get the device without it. Some harddisk manufacturers
sell harddisks with Linspire (Commercial Linux distro) pre-installed.
Another example is my previous motherboard from abit, it came with a
linux distro with all the modules already in the kernel. So when you
search the market a bit I'm sure alternatives can be found.

> It is true that serious sofwtare
> companies provide well packaged products with aboundant
> documentation.  They have the cash for it.  Those musicians who just
> want to plug and p[l][r]ay will naturally choose the mainstream OS
> with mainstream applications.  But that does not make them any more
> serious than those who want to venture into the OS and apps that give
> them freedom and a DIY environment for setting up their virtual gear
> the way they want.
I agree, but opensource software is often well documented as all
software should be. I didn't know the toggle in PureData could also
remember numbers, if I only knew many of such details earlier it would
have saved me days.

> > Another reason is that most hardware manufacturers provide drivers for
> > Windows
> > and Macintosh only. 
> > This means that with only linux you can't program
> > e.g. your
> > Roland synth or Nord Modular.
> derek covered that in his post.
Thanks for the tip, I'll search for his posts. I still have to get my
XV, Midisport and Modular working under Linux. Finally I'm giving it
another try :-)

> > In this perspecive linux is like a decennium behind commercial
> > alternatives.
> Not linux.  Linux is in fact a very stable and efficient OS.  Some
> audio applications are behind.  Rosegarden is what Cubase was about 5-6
> years
> ago.  Ardour has a feature-set more attractive than Nuendo (minus the
> MIDI sequencing) and soon it will be stable enough to actually use it
> in production.  Lilypond beats the socks off any notation package
> currently available if you can stand the text based input (although
> Rosegarden and NoteEdit are good frontends).  And is well documented,
> too.  There are many other examples.  When you say that this or that
> sofwtare is so&so many years behind the commercial alternative keep in
> mind that usually it's only a handful of developers working on it who
> don't have the budget.  I think this is impressive and merits some
> kind of user support.
I totally agree. But as you've said yourself, programs like Rosegarden
are years behind, and this was exactly my point, the reason why most
people choose to use Windows and/or MacOS instead.

> > I myself am thinking of switching from Windows to linux permanently now
> Good luck!
Currently installing Gentoo Linux.. compiling KDE 3.2.2 for P4.. I just
*love* it!

Greetings,

Tjeerd Sietsma
electronic music student
@ HKU Utrecht School of Arts, the Netherlands
-- 
  Tjeerd Sietsma
  tsietsma@xxxxxxxxxxx


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